EP # 5: Interview of Ambassador David Young

A conversation with Ambassador David Young surrounding his career as a diplomat including his vast experience, notable impressions, and advice for students.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

This, are you sure? Oh, totally. Yeah, it doesn't bother me.

SPEAKER_01 0:02

I used to, I was a public affairs officer in Guatemala. I was a journalism major, undergrad at Missouri, where my home state where I'm from. But then I did like newspaper writing and reporting and editing, which was really wonderful for the foreign services. Great, great skills. And then did a lot of public diplomacy outreach, you know, talking to the press and you know, doing TV and radio and social media and stuff. And so and especially over the last 10 years of my career when I was in Africa, African countries would do a lot of, you know, work on media. So yeah, I'm very happy.

SPEAKER_00 0:38

You're like, I've been here, done that. I understand. Not at all. Thank you. So we're here with Ambassador David Young. And my first question for you is you spent 35 years as a diplomat across three continents Africa, Latin America, Southeast Asia. What drew you to the Foreign Service? And was there a moment in your career that you knew that this was the right path for you?

SPEAKER_01 1:02

Sure. Well, it's great to be here with you and great to be on your podcast. Thank you for having me. Yeah, I have always been interested in travel and learning about new countries and cultures. I traveled a lot as a as a growing up with my parents. I would grew up in Missouri and traveled all over. So I've been to all 50 states at different times and have enjoyed, as I got into the Foreign Service, having this chance to travel to different countries. And being in the Foreign Service was really interesting because it's like you commit yourself to lifelong learning. And I think that's one of the exciting things. You know, I worked on countries for two or three years and kind of became a, at least within the U.S. government, kind of a policy expert on some of the details of the day-to-day policy. And yet those are countries I didn't even know where they were in the Foreign Service, you know? So it's really striking when I think back about the career I had in the global south across three continents, you know, working on d issues of democracy and human rights and others that I care about deeply, peace and security, investing in people. And it was it was really rewarding. In terms of a moment that, you know, early on, I had some experiences in in Vietnam, where I was the human rights officer. And this was, gosh, 25 years ago. But we were working to get prisoners released from prison, both political prisoners and religious prisoners, Buddhist, Catholic Protestant, Wahao, Cao Dai, all the different unique Vietnamese religions. And these were people who were protesting for their rights to have freedom of speech and assembly and to challenge the Communist Party's monopoly of power and discourse, you know, within public life. And just feeling like, you know, you could work to help people have a chance to gain their freedom and speak out again. It was a very special experience. And I remember thinking, wow, this is like really special work. And it's work that makes a difference in people's lives. And that was, those were some of the early signposts for me in one of my first overseas assignments, I think. Aaron Powell That's so cool.

SPEAKER_00 3:17

As ambassador to Malawi from 2022 to 2024, what was the most complex challenge that you navigated and what did that experience teach you about the realities of diplomacy?

SPEAKER_01 3:29

Yeah, I think one of the ones that was really impactful was dealing with anti-corruption issues. Because as I came in as ambassador for the first year or so, I was really able to build good relations with the president, the cabinet, opposition leaders, a lot of civil society folks. I traveled around the country, did a lot of social media, you know, just fun stuff, eating street food and, you know, being filmed, interacting with people in the markets, and doing a couple hip-hop videos with a hip-hop star and just doing some fun things, you know. So I kind of was really able to kind of make some popular connections with people across Malawi, at the same time working on tough economic policy issues or governance issues or human rights. But it was on the anti-corruption issue that was really kind of the toughest one about a year in, where we had been supporting the head of the anti-corruption bureau in the country, and she had been coming under increasing harassment and threat from government officials. And there was kind of a strict steady drumbeat against her because she was starting to zero in on the corruption of people in high places. You know, it's like uh corruption was fighting back. And this official, Martha Tizuma, she was in a very challenging position. And then one night, about a year into my tour, the police and security showed up at her residence in the middle of the night, took her from her house in her pajamas, you know, her kids were still at home, and they took her and drove her about 25 or 30 miles outside of the Capitol of the Longway. And when we heard about this as we woke up in the morning, you know, we jumped into action and I made a bunch of calls to high levels of the government and kind of just laid down the law that, you know, if anything happened to her, she needed to be released immediately. This if this anything happened to her, this would be a a big marker on our relations between the United States and Malawi. You know, this was unacceptable. And, you know, it was just kind of a hardline approach just to say this could be a watershed in our relations. You know, you can't treat people like this who are peacefully campaigning, you know, trying to work on issues that are good for your country, good for your economy, good for your future. And it was very interesting the response. She was released within a couple hours and then came to my house, and we did some media and social media to show she had been released and she was okay. But for the next months, she was under threat and was had to be aware of security, watching her constantly and everything. And it was, you know, her house was guarded heavily, and it was it was really a stressful situation. Long and short of it is that speaking out and being very publicly critical of the Malawian government may kind of limited my space in some ways to operate. And it, you know, there was a trade-off with some of the kind of friendly relations I had built with people in high levels of the government. But I think it was the right thing to do. And for somebody who cares as I do, and our our country has, you know, about democracy and human rights, it was important to speak out, you know, on her behalf. And interestingly, now she works in Washington with the World Bank in their anti-corruption bureau, you know, or offices there.

SPEAKER_00 6:59

So if I can deviate a little bit from the questions, then feel free to say no. But I would love to know how you balance policy and administration and management with doing the right thing. How did you how are you able to keep that integrity in the work that you do?

SPEAKER_01 7:20

Aaron Powell Yeah. I think it was interesting. You know, in the Foreign Service, you have a quite a bit, as I experienced over my 35 years. I retired two years ago in 2024. I was able to seek out assignments where I was feeling really quite good about the overall tenure, tenure of what we were doing, you know, with our policy, the main policy goals in the region. I was able to really pick assignments where I could wholeheartedly throw myself into it. I think I had maybe one or two places or issues of conscience where I disagreed with what was going on with a big policy that was impacting me personally. But by and large, in some ways I migrated to regions or places where I was in accord with the policy. And I must confess now that I'm a former diplomat, I could say, you know, I didn't always agree with everything within the administrations that I served in over time, but overall was able to seek out places where I could really make a difference on things I was passionate about. So this theme or the leitmotif that ran through my career of democracy, governance, human rights, investing in people, working on international exchanges, I was able, through my work in the different countries I served in to really wholeheartedly put myself into that. And that was that was, I think, good for me and able to finding that sweet spot of being able to serve with integrity and enthusiasm too.

SPEAKER_00 8:55

I think as students, that's all we want, right? Is to find that sweet spot and to navigate that in our future careers. So thank you for sharing.

SPEAKER_01 9:03

I would just say to follow up to, I think it's really, you know, to my word to students and those of you studying international relations, human rights, development now, you know, keep true to your values and your heart. It's really important, you know, when I see, think back across the arc of my career, you know, finding something you believe in and being committed to the values and the deepest concerns that you have, your ideals is so, so important. I mean, obviously, you know, the world is messy out there and you have to make trade-offs and, you know, but you know, fundamentally, I think, you know, one should feel good about what you're doing and committed to it. And I always believed that, you know, if there would come a time where I would disagree fundamentally on something, it would be time for me to leave. And it worked out for me that I almost resigned once, but I but I was able to move to another assignment in that so I was able to find ways to really work for what I believed in at the deepest level.

SPEAKER_00 10:04

I love that. For our next question, Friday's simulation puts students inside a US embassy scenario that gets increasingly complicated. What specific skills or instincts are you hoping that students walk away with? And why does experiential learning matter in preparing for a career in foreign service?

SPEAKER_01 10:23

Yeah, I think that you know, doing a simulation exercise to kind of learn how diplomacy takes place, it helps you develop group facilitation and teamwork skills, which is so important, not only for diplomacy, but just for any job you have, you know, being able to work with others, use emotional intelligence skills. I think in this simulation, people need to make kind of a short, pithy presentation of their perspective, just in a few sentences, and then interact with others, engage, you know, be very much engaged with active listening, really trying to understand and kind of appreciate the perspective that your counterparts bring, and then ask insightful questions. And then with this simulation, people will have to kind of think fast on their feet, keep their composure as circumstances change a little bit. And it's also important of how to build consensus, you know. But with the simulation we have, it's fun. It gives students a chance to kind of freelance a little bit, you know, within broad parameters, but we work it out so people can step out of their roles and contact somebody at the foreign ministry, or they can call an official in Washington, or they can do things like that. So it gives you a chance to have some fun, some creativity with dealing with some challenges you might face at an embassy. So it's I've done it with students at a couple other universities, and it's been really a fun time. In terms of why it's important, I mean, I think these skills are really important for diplomacy. You know, you actually get tested on something kind of like this when you're joining the Foreign Service, you know, in the Foreign Service exam, the the the uh the oral part, you know, the dialogue part that you get evaluated on after the written exam. And I think generally it's just the skills are really useful for for, you know, whether you go into business or if you are involved in international business and trying to manage across cultures or working for a nonprofit or, you know, another organization that you believe in. It's these kind of skills are really useful in all those settings. So thank you. Sure.

SPEAKER_00 12:37

And then what's one thing that you wish someone had told you before you entered this field and what's something current Corbell students can do today to prepare for a career in this space?

SPEAKER_01 12:46

Yeah, I think one thing I was told, but I've come to really appreciate much more than I ever imagined before, was how the Foreign Service is really about lifelong learning. You don't have to come in and know about every country in the world. You don't have to know a million languages, although it helps if you're a polyglot and could speak different languages. I wish I had, I'm not a particular linguist, and so I wish I had stronger language, foreign language skills. I have decent Spanish, I learned Vietnamese for an assignment in Hanoi. I learned some little bits of conversational languages in different African countries, Nyanja, Bimba, others. But I wish I had stronger language skills would be something I wish I had developed or even focused on in the Foreign Service. But I think this theme of lifelong learning is really important because, and that's one of the things that makes the Foreign Service fun, is you get an assignment, a different focus every two, three years, and you can engage and learn about new languages, cultures, perspectives on the world. And and the other quality I think is really important is that, you know, trying to have humility. You know, you come in, and I'm a person who has very strong beliefs and commitments to principles on human rights and democracy and and other investing in people to make a difference. I believe very, very strongly in mutual interest, that we can do good for ourselves at the same time that we can find mutual interest with other countries and people around the world. I'm that's a real bedrock of my philosophy on international relations and cooperation. But I think a really important part of that is having humility. If you have to go in and really actively listen, understand another person's, another country's perspective. It doesn't mean you agree with it, but you really need to start by the listening with humility. If you don't do that, it's very, very difficult to make progress to come together, to find common ground, to work towards mutual interest solutions if you don't listen to each other and engage with humility.

SPEAKER_00 14:53

I don't think I've ever heard any speaker at Corbell say that before.

SPEAKER_01 14:57

Really? Oh, that's interesting. I really like that. Yeah. It was an interesting, it was a leadership lesson I learned from Linda Thomas Greenfield, who was most recently ambassador to the United Nations under the Biden administration. She was one of my mentors in the Africa Bureau at State as I served in different countries across the African continent. And she used to talk about the importance of humility, of listening. And I think that's a very profound principle. And something interestingly, I I studied, I had a kind of a winding road to the Foreign Service. I started out in journalism intentionally, but then was planning to become a minister and actually studied theology and world religions, and then came back through some work on NGOs and others, and then kind of joined the Foreign Service almost by accident. And but I think some of those principles I learned, particularly from my kind of religion theology phase about having humility as you because that's a very strong principle for me and my beliefs, my faith perspective, is that, you know, we have to do justice and love mercy and walk with humility in our life. And I really think that principle of humility is something we forget. And sometimes we as Americans can we need to be assertive and we need to stand up for what we believe. But humility is a really important thing that sometimes gets ignored.

SPEAKER_00 16:25

It's grounding.

SPEAKER_01 16:26

It's grounding. Yeah, I agree with you.

SPEAKER_00 16:28

I love that. And then if you have time, I would love to ask you some questions that we were potentially going to go over in Carol's class. Sure. Happy to. So, in terms of the future of USAID and the future of U.S. foreign assistance, what can we learn from the successes and failures of past development approaches?

SPEAKER_01 16:48

Yeah, I mean, I am very much one who feels that if trying to reform USAID and development assistance and human rights advocacy and so many other things we've done, I really believe, you know, we should have taken a scalpel rather than wood chipper to things, to use those metaphors. Because I think there was an awful lot, a tremendous amount of good that was done through having the three-legged stool of diplomacy, development, and defense working together, of mobilizing the tools of soft power, of to engage through health and education cooperation, expanding exchanges, letting people come for, you know, to great schools like the Corbell Institute, Denver University, you know, being able to have those exchanges of students and scholars in both directions, you know, professional exchanges. I think all those things make us stronger as a nation. They make us stronger in our foreign policy approach. We've moved away from that, you know, and USAID was disbanded. You know, I've become a professional coach, and so now I do leadership, executive coaching, life coaching. And I'm coaching some former folks who used to work at USAID, who found new jobs and, you know, are working with these, you know, with new challenges. But I think I think we have really hurt our reputation. I think we've broken trust that is going to be very hard to repair with countries around the world. And that's that's one of the biggest deficits I think we have is is trust. Because I heard when I was still in the Foreign Service, people would say, well, you know, how do we know you're here for the long term? How do we know that you're gonna engage a startup program, continue it? And I think that's that's a big challenge. So, you know, when I look at the work that we did to kind of help keep elections on the rails, you know, in places that they were looking to arrest the opposition leader and not allow an election to take place, or when we engage to get prisoners out of prison or keep people from being in prison, when we worked on health cooperation to fight HIV, malaria, tuberculosis, when we did, you know, economic growth and business incubation, you know, promoted professional exchanges, all these different things. It gave us a real broad kind of basket of tools to use in foreign policy and foreign assistance was a really important part of that. You know, in the moment we're in, we've moved away from that. I think I have seen over the course of my 35-year career that the pendulum swings. And there will inevitably be some, you know, at whatever future point, that will be kind of the pendulum will swing and have some mid-course corrections, you know. But I don't think it will ever look like it won't be the same. And it will be different. And we'll have to kind of take some of those programs and some of those initiatives and really focus and and recreate. And I mean, but re-reboot with a new focus. I think, you know, programs that invest in people in their capacity, their education, their professional training, helping give people become more self-reliant, build their capacity and skills, I think those are really foundational programs we should invest in up front as we move forward. Yeah, but yeah, I'm you know, it there are opportunities with the challenges, and we have to be hopeful and you know, committed to making a difference. I think we can do that. But I do have some sadness about the wood chipper approach, sadly. I think.

unknown 20:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:36

I think you're right in that rebuilding trust is going to take a lot of time and a lot of effort and consistency in the future.

SPEAKER_01 20:42

Yeah. And I think it's, you know, I think it's it's going to be an interesting we've come out of an interesting moment of we've had, you know, since World War II, there's been a very strong bipartisan consensus a lot about the pillars of U.S. foreign policy. There have been disagreements, obviously, with different military operations and wars and, you know, things that have been very divisive for the country. But there's been kind of for and at least since the end of the Cold War, there was a real kind of pivotal kind of belief in this kind of triangle of diplomacy, defense development, working together and bringing soft power to balance, hard power. And we'll have to kind of see how this is put back together and whatever new manifestation. And I think that's one of the challenges, and that's one of the opportunities for your generation, for you guys coming out of Corbell, and you know, just the opportunities that will present themselves for the future.

SPEAKER_00 21:43

Fingers crossed. That's actually a great segue into my last question for you, which is what brings you hope?

SPEAKER_01 21:51

Yeah, I find that, you know, the differences that we can make in individual people's lives can be transformative. I was just talking to somebody I knew worked with very closely, a young professional from Malawi, who uh just earlier this week graduated from Michigan State with his master's in public policy. And this was somebody that we had invested in. I had kind of helped mentor work with. And, you know, I see somebody like this student, you know, this young professional who may be involved in public life in his country when he goes back, might run for office one day, you know, has built skills that he's gonna make a difference in his country. I feel like those success stories, those bright lights, those points of light, you know, are really influential and hopeful for the future. And there's many of them, you know. I mean, helping invest in the change makers and the people who can make a difference for tomorrow. It's why I like to go around to universities and like speak to classes here, like at uh Denver, you know, and just engage. It's really important for me to kind of help share some of the lessons that I've learned over my career and inspire and encourage others. And so I find a lot of hope in that. I mean, things, you know, we shouldn't, we don't want to be demoralized or frustrated or disempowered. We need to get out there and, you know, light the candles and do what we can and invest in people and and build infrastructures, you know, for the future. So I find hope in that.

SPEAKER_00 23:26

So thank you so much. I really appreciate you taking the time to do this. And it's very lovely to hear that you think we're gonna build something better.

SPEAKER_01 23:36

Yeah, no, I definitely feel that. And it's, you know, I think it's you know, I found that it was interesting. I got involved in foreign policy in some ways because of some critiques of policies of a previous generation where I didn't really agree with what our policy was in the 1980s towards Central America. I thought we had kind of taken a framework, if you can give me one more minute. Of course, absolutely framework where I had done a master's thesis in Ireland where I did an exchange for a year after my undergrad. And I had kind of looked at the containment policy that was formed in the post-World War II era about looking at containment in Eastern Central Europe, which made a lot of sense. But I think when containment policy got applied north-south to Southeast Asia, to Vietnam, where I served later, to South America, you know, and I served in Central American countries like Guatemala and Panama, and then to Sub-Saharan Africa, and I was serving in what were then frontline states like Zambia, served in Malawi, was in South Africa. I think over time we kind of lost our moorings because we saw all those countries' challenges, developments, struggles as an east-west, you know, communist capitalist, you know, struggle. And I think we really ignored events on the ground that were more powerful and shaping what happened in those countries. And it was ironic for me to then, having worked on that thesis, and then after 40 years, I can go back and say, well, you know, interestingly, I served in Vietnam and Guatemala and in South Africa, where we were working on using soft power engagements for reconciliation, mutual interest. And it was a really interesting arc from my career that I had come into foreign policy because of critiques and concerns about policies that I thought had gotten off the rails, and then be able to work for enduring values over time later. So, you know, I think you know, people can have moments where you're frustrated or disagree, but you know, take the long term view too. You know, you can make a difference in the future.

SPEAKER_00 26:00

Perfect. I'm gonna end it.